Posted by Shih Tzu (cf-i2.doshisha.ac.jp/202.23.191.26) on March 13, 2002 at 01:08:40
In Response to Re: Well, here's some posted by Tomato on March 12, 2002 at 10:40:07:
> You don't think FF2 was a lot better than previous game translations? I agree it's not a huge step like FF3 made, but I still can't shake the feeling it was a pretty big step up from stuff before it. Even though it was a pretty "iffy" translation in many places, hardware and NOA difficulties aside.
Well, it was definitely pretty long. And I suppose it could've been worse. But it doesn't especially strike me as a significant improvement over translations up to that point. Granted, it's been a while since I've played it, so I should probably go and get some firmer reimpressions before making any further claims. Also, sorry to force you into the position of defending it, as though now you have to support it as a shining example of early-90s game translations. :) That's not my intention.
> I took a quick look at some of what you did on Just Breed the other day, looking good. Looking real good :)
Woah, how? O_o Oh, probably that quick look at the prologue I sent out when I was figuring out if I could translate it at all? Yikes, that thing's in rough shape. I hope the final cut will be significantly better than that. Thanks for the encouragement, though I don't feel it's deserved quite yet!
> Yeah, I've noticed the same thing about swearing myself. The distinction between swearing and not swearing as it exists in English doesn't correspond directly in Japanese IMO. The problem is people just starting learning the language might not know this and everytime there's a kuso or chikushou or whatever, if there's not a huge swear word in the English translation, it's automatically wrong. Bleh, hard to talk about it without examples and actual contexts. And people who don't know Japanese but hear that all the swearing was taken out from a translation don't know exactly what that means, so when a translation like the Dejap ToP comes out, people might think "Whoa, they put tons of swearing in" or "Whoa is this how Japanese games really are" or "Whoa these guys like cuss words". Is that good or bad? I dunno.
No, I know what you mean. It almost seems like it could go any number of directions, and you have to pick one based on your intended audience and how it fits within the context of the game. There was a "chikushou" in Sylvan Tale, but it's generally a pretty sweet little fantasy game. I left it in as "Dammit," since it was just the one, but it probably could have been reworked into something more creative if I'd really cared to target the game across the board. (Notice how neither Star Wars movies nor the Lord of the Rings have any contemporary profanity?) In Just Breed, since the tone of the game is a lot lewder and more self-aware (there are a ton of knowing jibes at the fantasy RPG cliches the game inhabits), I think it should be fine to use the occasional rough language when called for. Still, I'm not going to just drop in "fuck" every time there's a "ze" or anything (I doubt I'll use the word at all). There's already a spot with a "chikushou!" that'll probably go as "Blast!", just because it feels right there.
> Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad. That would definitely be a Working Design's-type translation. It also depends on your audience and your goal for the translation. If you're going for a "super literal translation" (as if one existed), then that wouldn't be warranted, but if you were going for a translation that people wouldn't be analyzing and would just be playing for enjoyment, and if you think that line is warranted, then go with it. If somebody comes up to you and says you suck for screwing with the text, you'll just have to give them a good whooping and send them home crying to mommy ;)
Yeah, that's the thing, it feels tied to what you just mentioned about speech patterns being torture to convey in English. I wasn't JUST trying to screw with the text, I was trying to find an outlet in English for the character aspects de-emphasized in the "literal" translation.
> Incidentally, this is part of the reason why there's the whole BL fiasco, the hacker I first started with (who didn't know any Japanese) saw like one line where I did a slight westernization like yours and claimed I was a horrible translator and that my cheap-ass translating skills suck. Well, I didn't stay with him very long after that :)
Heh, yikes. Philosophies do differ. Translation is a terrible balancing act between faithfulness to the source language and effect in the target language. I remember watching some dreadful Magic Knight Rayearth fansubs...well, maybe they weren't dreadful, but the only thing I can recall was that every time one of the characters said, say, "Umi-chan!" (as opposed to "Umi!"), the translator insisted on writing "Umi-ster!" YES, "-ster" happens to be a suffix in English that sometimes approximates the suffix "-chan" in Japanese, but...NO! That SUCKS! Over and over and over again, "Fuu-ster!" "Hikaru-ster!" No one cares whether the girl said "-chan" or not! Gah. That's not what you were saying, I know, but anyway.
I've come to see language as sort of a way to carve a map out of human experience, with each word and each structure occupying a certain amount of space. And after six months in Japan, I've noticed that while there are similarities between many of the occupied territories in both Japanese and English, I'll be damned if a one of them has a one-to-one relationship between the languages. "Hon" won't always work as "book." "-tai" form doesn't always work as "want."
> BL has a line or two like this, the resident old fogey tries to be cool and young on a couple occasions and uses words (that are 100% warranted) like "hip" and "cool". When a couple people saw him saying that stuff, they asked me why I did that, assuming it was my fault or something. I think what usually happens is that if a translated line or paragraph sounds good, it's because the original author was good, but if something sounds weird or out of place, it's automatically the translator's fault. I bet you 50 yen that when people play your translation with that old guy being a hip young guy, they'll say something about it to you :)
Well, I'm going to try to keep the feel of the original, but I'll bend what I need to to get the real meaning and the effect of the original across. I might be too loose with my translating (I'm still working on figuring out when to reign myself in), but I'm willing to justify much larger bends in translation if it's toward something sensitive like humor. Humorous language is arguably THE most sensitive kind to translate; a word or two can make all the difference between "Ahh, that must have been a joke in the original," and the genuine uncontrollable guffaw. Loose and "literal" translations each have their merits in these cases, but, especially when I'm working with a work of art meant to be enjoyed and not an interview or something, I'm strongly in favor of making the end product as appreciable as possible as part of the larger work. My richest experiences playing translated video games (amateur or professional) have been the ones where it either felt like the game was created in English or felt at least like the characters were real and vital and not passing through a filter. Vagrant Story comes to mind. Approach to translation can and should differ depending on the item in question, but my current ideal with video games at least is a translation that has passed through a human being, one who says, "Wow. Okay, here's what this -feels- like to me." The words are important, but they're pointless without the music.
And I'm probably too lax. Anyone want to take me to task? There's still a chance to save Just Breed from a hell of...um...something! Something bad that I'd do to it!
> > I always found it amusing how the EvilBook or whatever enemies in Secret of Mana got past the Nintendo censors. Leave 'em alone long enough, apparently, and they pop open to a li'l naked elf girl or something.
>
> Yeah I can't believe they missed that :) Not like there was much to see though. It was like 10 pixels or something ;)
WELL IT SURE GOT ME GOIN'